Sunday, June 3, 2007

"What is your sign for VICTIM?"

33 comments:

Oscar the Observer said...

I like the sign that signify being stuck. As I said before, when we discuss signs, we CAN and SHOULD boot English for a while. Anyway, I LOVE that sign that signify being stuck! I never realized that before, thanks!

Aidan Mack said...

A victim is not a neutral. A victim is in a situation where her/his power is being taken away. I don't understand why some social workers think that a victim is a neutral.. I would LOVE to see Candance Mccullough's opinion on this. Hey Candance, can you come over and make comment on this? SMile...

Aidan

Squ65 said...

I agree ... I like the sign that shown being stuck. His/her power is being taken away and no choice but STUCK! Wondering if that social worker who mentioned victim is a neutral is hearing or Deaf? Me Curious.

B.A.D. said...

Thanks Oscar! It is true, while being a victim - you are "stuck" in "that" situation.

Right on Aidan! I hope Candance comes and sees this and would like to see her perspective.

Diane - 1st, one signed (Victim - as "stuck") is hearing, and the one that disagreed with her and said Victim should be "Neutral" is Deaf. and the 3rd one again, is another Deaf Social Worker.

Anonymous said...

Hello
Oh the word vitim (signing BIG V on your throat) means you are stuck without power or being in a trapped without any help.
( Big V shaking hand) you think it is NETURAL.. no no that not making any sense.

Tell SWK to look up the dictionary.
(Im shaking my head big time)
SB

Seek Geo said...

I usually sign "stuck" or spell it out v-i-c-t-i-m, it depends on situation, I guess.

Sometime, I'd spell it out to make sure these people is aware that I mention it clear and then after that, I'd sign victim "stuck."

-SG

mishkazena said...

Definitely the 'V' against the throat is the most appropriate sign for victim. I've never seen 'V' in neutral position before and the reasoning behind this odd sign, "neutral" contradicts the real meaning of victim. Victim is powerless and trapped, being injured. How can this person be 'neutral'??? *shaking head in disbelief*

deafutahhiker said...

Interesting discussion!

I have seen two signs, but NEVER this "neutral-V" sign. Wow, I found it to be strange.

I sigh "V" on the neck, as well as "suffer+person" Anyone use that one? Will be interesting to see if anyone else does.

B.A.D. said...

Thanks Geo!! :-)

MishaZena - I forgot to ADD ( I was in a hurry - I get nervous vlogging). I did stand up after I got mad about "Victim" signing neutral. After MANY people watching me, they rooted for me and agreed with me. But the Social Worker still was stubborn and stood with "Victim" as neutral because they (victim) can't help being in an "abusive" position.
Maybe will make a Part II on what I did on the STAGE - EEK!!! :-)

drmzz said...

Like MZ and others said, V on neck.

Dianne K said...

I totally agree with you about the sign for victim. I like your sign for being stuck. Also other people try to use the same "V" for violence, so that can be confusing, too. I strongly believe that we should stick with "V" at throat. What about the sign for "rape"? Some people use "V" for rape, too, so that's something to be considered. I know that there is other sign for "rape." I am so glad you brought it up to be discussed.

Anonymous said...

you know, on another note i know a SWer who signs 'abuse' A-B-U-S-E in order to clarify that it isn't always connected to violence (emotional abuse, drug abuse, etc). perhaps this is a similar vein to that idea.

Anonymous said...

Victim...

Here, we use two kinds of signs for victim. One is 'V' on one's front neck. The other is 'c' again on one's front neck. Seek Geo is right about spelling the word (v-i-c-t-i-m) out for clarity. The sign, 'v' in the neutral position is new to me.

Abuse, rape...

And I remember being told not to use the sign for 'abuse' (hitting the L. index - person - with the R. fist)

OR move down bent 'V' over the L. index (as if pulling clothes off a victim).

The hearing person who worked with deaf victims years ago explained that those mentioned signs were incorrect and inappropriate. The correct sign was using open '8' hands (middle finger) over an invisible image in the air. What do you say?? Maybe ask Marilyn Smith, an expert on sexual assault.

Former SW

Squ65 said...

*wondering* Who are the Deaf Social workers? I know their name won't be disclosed here but I am very surprised to hear this.

mishkazena said...

The SW's reasoning for the V in a neutral position is that the victim cannot help being in an abusive position? The justification for that particular sign doesn't even make any sense to me. In my opinion, that sign sorta trivializes the abusive situation. I would like to hear what the Deaf domestic violence counselors have to say about this sign.

Now you got my curiosity. Please vlog and let us know what you did on the stage ;)

kira said...

sign that shown being stuck, period!

Anonymous said...

Ummm..Often the victims feel that this word, "victim" is a bad word. No one would want to be a victim. This sign being "stuck" can affect their self esteem. Keep this sign in "neutral" would empower the "victims" to seek for the better lives. I was a victim of domestic violence/ sexual assault. I was really embarrassed being a victim. This sign "stuck" made me feel that I won't able to trust myself ever again. It is important to send the right messages to the victims that being a victim is nothing to be ashamed of and they are not alone. Well, I do understand your point about the sign,"victim" as stuck, but we focus on empowering the victims to make the right choices and they are survivors. It is never too late to have the better lives..

C-

Shrimpy said...

I would like watch My Videos :-)

http://my.videoegg.com/video/dhxTeZ

Anonymous said...

This is a fabulous discussion. I have seen both signs for "victim".

As an advocate I avoid the English word, victim, as much as I can in the field of domestic and sexual violence. At DeafHope,where I work, we use the word "survivor" because it sends a more positive message.

If I use the word victim, I fingerspell it, I dont want the survivors to think they are "stuck".

If the survivor chooses the signing concept "stuck" then we use it as an opportunity to explore his/her stage or experience of feeling stuck or feeling loss of power.

Concepts of signs for victims can be great counseling tools to process where they are at as survivors.

Julie Rems-Smario

Anonymous said...

Isnt shaking "V" meaning VIRGIN that's what I sign for it...Good about V on your throat..Neve thought of it...always fingerspelled that word Victim.
Till later,

Anonymous said...

Sign for "Hospital"

Off the point... Had to ask this question... I noticed you signed "hospital" in one of your vlogs by touching your forehead with "b" (Left then Right). Diane (Diane Squ65) did the same thing... Are you both located in New England?? I would like you to ask us in your next vlog and ask us all for different signs for "hospital". I think it is more fun to compare different signs for the same word. Thanks smile

Aidan Mack said...

To answer ANON's question: Yes it is New Jersey's regional sign: "Hospital". I am from New Jersey. I use the handshape of "B" on my forehead. :oD It can be the handshape "U" or "B". Diane is not from New Jersey, I think. I am curious where she did pick it up from. I guess we wil wait until Diane respond to this.

Aidan

Dianrez said...

I'm in agreement with the V-on-the-throat sign for "victim"; however, the neutral sign has a point. One does not want to imply that a victim is powerless to cope with the aftermath of abuse.

There is a different problem with the V-on the throat sign, also: it is a recent initial letter sign (I don't remember seeing it before this past few years.

Perhaps related: when I worked with minority Deaf people in Washington-Baltimore during the 70's, that V-on-the-throat sign meant "pregnant".

mishkazena said...

I've sent this blog to Candace and Julie of DeafHope as now I am intriqued. The anon's comment about why V sign against throat isn't empowering makes sense. I haven't thought of this before.

I've seen the hospital sign in FL, too.

B.A.D. said...

WOW!

Thanks for alll your inputs. I'm at work and checking for comments (Shh!!).

I will comment later on, maybe do a Vlog on it.

Mishkazena - Thanks for forwarding this to Candance, as you see Julie (DeafHope) already responded.

Oscar the Observer said...

I want to add that if you sign a sign that translate into 'victim' in neutral way, you are actually mistranslating the word 'victim'.

When hearies get offended by being perceived as a victim, they change their word to 'survivor' or some other such. Same with us ASL signers, we can change sign to give a person in that situation stronger esteem like a sign that translate into 'survivor' for example. However, if a counselor or social worker was giving speech to other professionals in general and he/she is a Deaf ASL signer, they should sign appropriately so that interpreters can translate into English better.

In other words, in some situations, it is okay to sign a sign that translate into 'victim' other times sign that translate into 'survivor' or other such.

I know I know I am repeatedly emphasizing language aspect. It is because like I said before in my post "Onward Deaf Soldiers" I fight for ASL as an official language no mater how hard it will get.

deafworldchamp said...

What u just said victim in "stuck" position, is true, but i have different perspective of "neutral" victim. Victim person is not neutral. What i learned from my internship at DC police department with deaf and hard of hearing unit, we talked about that before. We used victim in "stuck" position and those victims felt offended by that. they prefer to use victim in "neutral" position. we had to respect victims' choice. it shows neutral in language itself, not by a victim and its situation. they felt offended because the sign victim in "stuck" made them feel like they re trapped into any situation and they dont want to use it. That s what i learned from them. so we had to change our sign into victim in "neutral". :-)

Squ65 said...

Hey Anon -- I am from Massachusetts. I first learned about that when I came back home from Gallaudet. I grew up oral soo ..

DeafWoman said...

Wow!! This is a great topic to discuss as it's a sensitive word. Honestly, I've never seen anyone sign like that with the shaking hand in a V shape...I've signed victim as in trapped/stuck or else spell it out. As I read comments and found it interesting and it's making sense.
I would say that in everyday conversation or sharing experience when we were stuck or trapped, we sign "victim" on our throats, but good point and to help people who felt victimized and/or still traumitzed, is for us to sign another way, shaking hand with the V sign...or simply, better use the word, "survivor" which is an empowered word. We do not want to make any people who are victims to feel like they are "stuck stuck stuck" but to feel they CAN be set free...shaking hand with the V sign, outside of body...not stuck on ourselves. It's quite interesting to see this topic and discuss our thoughts and understanding better..at the same time to help victims not to feel they're "stuck" forever, y'all know what I'm saying? So I get Anonymous C's point...we learn something new everyday. I would love to see you do another part and tell us what happened when you stood up and disagreed...please make another part. You're doing great and thanks for bringing this topic up for us to ponder and discuss our thoughts. Keep on vlogging girl!! Ya rock!!

Candace A. McCullough said...

Hi B.A.D. and everyone....Good discussion! Here is my response.

http://www.ascdeaf.com/blog/?p=316#respond

No language/word is neutral, my opinion. If we must use the English word
victim, it is best to fingerspell it.

FairLady said...

You know that person who ever invent the V as in neutral is bogus cuz down here in south. It is often said as in meaning = vibrator. We sign the word V on the neck like you just sign not exact same as stuck but close enough.

Irish1856 said...

I agreed with Candace A. McCullough. I don't even remember anyone in the past signed "victim". They used ASL's index finger "she/he". If they wanted to use the word, they fingerspelled it. So I agree if you want to use that word, fingerspell it. Shaking "V" made me think of vitamins or vanilla.

Anonymous said...

Here in northern central California we sign v on the side of the neck (below the ear) for victim like you did in your vlog. The one you showed us with the v signed like neutral with the hand shaking, we use this sign for vitamins.